Auction to avoid Live Whisky auction

[agoldf]

I participate in basically every online and physical whisky auction and am sorry to be writing this but I have come across what I believe to be deceitful marketing by this auction.
I was the highest bidder for the following
http://www.livewhiskyauctions.com/auction.html/view-lot=0000000041/ lot:
But when the auction ended, I was not shown as the winner. It turns out that despite the fact that other lots had their reserves posted, this lot not only did not post what the reserve was but in fact did not even show that there was a reserve.
Now, while that would make me disappointed, (and an auction site I'd avoid as not worth the effort) I would not necessarily call that deceitful, I understand reserves, and the need for new auctions to rely on them. BUT it turns out that the reserve on the lot was 30% higher that the most the bottle had ever before achieved and 33% higher than it just made at SWA just 3 months ago. In other words, they KNEW that there was no way (especially on their first auction) that this would sell. So they used this lot to advertise that they had a special bottle (they hyped it on both Twitter and facebook) to get people to come and bid and then hid the fact that it was not realistically available.
I mean we all know the fako auctions that list items with crazy reserves and we know they are not for real. When you set up an auction you need to decide whether you are a serious auction or just trying to see if can get a few suckers to pay above the going rate. I'm pretty sure they didn't post the reserve because they wanted the people coming to the site to think they were legit while if they saw the the reserve they would have just laughed.
In essence, I think this was tricky advertising. I would appreciate it if others chimed in. Am I being unreasonably critical?

[Mark]

There are so many of these online whisky auctions now. I wonder if the Bowmore 1957 even existed. I wonder if legally they can say after the auction has finished that there was a reserve price, whoever is behind this Live Whisky Auction set up is on dodgy ground here.

[Alastair]

If no reserve was shown then there was no reserve, i would say they are on dodgy ground claiming there was a reserve after the auction ended. I now know to avoid Live Whisky Auctions.

[STUDOGG37]

With so much competition about, they will have lose a few customers with this publicity stunt.

agoldf,
I would put a public message up on the facebook page and see what they have to say.
_________________
You can't push anyone up the ladder unless he is ready to climb himself.

[LWA]

Hi,
I am happy to respond on behalf of LiveWhiskyAuctions.com.
I understand your disappointment and frustration at not winning what was a very good lot in our recent auction.
As you know, I have been in touch with you personally, prior to you posting this message, to set out the facts.
I shall try to go through the various points you have made.
You have suggested that the Bowmore was unique in that its reserve price was hidden. This was not the case. We canvassed opinion before launching the site and the balance of opinion from potential sellers was split on whether or not the reserve price should be shown. We therefore made this an option during site development that sellers could choose for themselves. We respect their rights as the owners of the bottles to choose.
Out of the 34 lots we included in our auction, only 7 items had reserve prices shown - at the request of the sellers. Therefore 80% of items did not display the reserve, including the Bowmore. It was in no way unique in this regard as you suggest.
As regards the reserve price set, whilst some sellers ask our opinion on suitable reserve prices, on this occasion we weren't asked. The seller offered the bottle for auction and established a £4k reserve. Their rationale for this was that there is currently a bottle on Whisky Exchange for £5,999.99, and another price on Whisky Vault at £6,000. The bottle they offered was number 2 from the run. With this in mind, but understanding they wouldn't get retail prices at private auction, they set a reserve of £4k - again without asking our opinion. We do not know what the seller paid for the bottle or when, so we respect their right to choose their own reserve. It is their property and therefore their decision on what they are prepared to accept in a sale.
In relation to our marketing, we did mention that the Bowmore was available in the auction on Twitter and Facebook. However, to say we used or 'hyped' this lot to attract people is misleading. We in fact published the images on our Facebook page of 11 individual bottles that were available in the auction. These were published in the run up to, and during, the auction. The Bowmore image was featured just once in that run of 11 different bottles. As this bottle would only be affordable to a small number of buyers, we did not think that this was a suitable bottle to attract a significant number of potential bidders to the site.
I believe the issue of reserves will always be difficult. I know that the excellent Scotch Whisky Auctions site has just changed their policy (within the last few months) of not showing reserves due to the disappointment of many bidders who were unsuccessful. So this is not a new issue for whisky auction sites.
We will of course listen to the feedback of users and we will always look at ways to improve the site and the bidding process. I'm sure we won't be able to make everyone happy, especially disappointed bidders, but we will try to be fair to both buyers and sellers.

[James T]

Perhaps i am missing something, its late and these are awful long posts to read and I have been drinking but isnt agoldf's main grievance with the fact that bidders were not aware that there was a "Reserve Price" I dont think anyone would expect the reserve price to be shown but in an online auction you really should say that there is a reserve price and whether it has been met. Why on earth would a bidder continue bidding if there bid is the highest bid and there is no indication that the reserve price hasnt been met, frankly if that is the set up it is stupid and i am sure many others would not waste time bidding in your auctions and suddenly find they had fell short of the hidden reserve. The reserve price doesnt need to be revealed but the bidders should be aware of the fact that a reserve price exists. I would doubt i would trust any auction who reveals that a reserve price existed after the auction closes.

[agoldf]

[agoldf]

[Samson]

I have to say, telling a bidder they have not met the reserve price which they didn't know existed before bidding stinks.

[The Kas Man]

LWA thanks for the reply and being open about it all, right or wrong.
I would suggest if a buyer has set a reserve price, please just state it has one, no need to tell us what it is. I think in the next auction if you don't get this right you won't last long.

SWA did have issues when they first started up and have grown to be a huge success.
As a buyer/seller I do not agree with them showing reserve prices, it just seems crazy to me, most people do the research and know what a bottle is worth.

The last one to sell at SWA 3 months ago reached £3000, buyer paid around £3350, now it does seem odd that bidding stopped at £1901 on LWA.

I am no Bowmore expert but after a quick search (less than 1 minute to be precise) I found one UK shop selling at £4,200 and one in Europe selling for £3250, this is the same bottle put can't be the exact same item because of the bottles are numbered. Personally numbers do not matter to me but the No2 might be worth more.

I would have thought a reserve of around £2500 would be fairer next time....?

[Bookie]

[jcarrick]

It is a bit daft not to indicate that a reserve price exists, no-one would expect to know what that is but surely it is to the sellers, buyers and auctioneers advantage to indicate that the reserve price has not yet been met.

The reason this bottle of Bowmore 1957 38 year old didnt fetch more is probably a lot to do with the auction site being new and it doesnt yet attract many bidders so it would be unwise for any seller to enter an expensive rare bottle into this auction without a reserve price no matter how tempting the auction fees are.

[The Kas Man]

The second auction is now live.

They now state that an item has a reserve, but it does not look like they have changed the software.

Has anyone bid on the 2nd auction......?